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Home Repair - - If it ain't broken, don't fix it. Otherwise look here.
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Posted by Tater on November 19, 2006, 6:18 pm
I live in mid wisconsin and am planning on a 40x80' shed and would like
to know what i should be doing for the foundation. I am thinking of
putting a 40x40 concrete slab and would like to ensure that frost heave
does not dammage it.
one contractor said to put 2 inches of styrofoam insulation, but he did
not even see the site, so I'd like to know what to prepare before we
get to the styrofoam. the area has a bunch of trees that will be
removed, stumps pulled and etc. I'm wondering if the existing soild can
be used or if i have to get some gravel
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Posted by Charles Schuler on November 19, 2006, 6:23 pm
>I live in mid wisconsin and am planning on a 40x80' shed and would like
> to know what i should be doing for the foundation. I am thinking of
> putting a 40x40 concrete slab and would like to ensure that frost heave
> does not dammage it.
>
> one contractor said to put 2 inches of styrofoam insulation, but he did
> not even see the site, so I'd like to know what to prepare before we
> get to the styrofoam. the area has a bunch of trees that will be
> removed, stumps pulled and etc. I'm wondering if the existing soild can
> be used or if i have to get some gravel
I installed a similar structure in SW PA and had no problems with the slab
... poured 8 inches thick, at ground level, reinforced with mesh.
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Posted by on November 19, 2006, 6:48 pm
>I live in mid wisconsin and am planning on a 40x80' shed and would like
> to know what i should be doing for the foundation. I am thinking of
> putting a 40x40 concrete slab and would like to ensure that frost heave
> does not dammage it.
>
> one contractor said to put 2 inches of styrofoam insulation, but he did
> not even see the site, so I'd like to know what to prepare before we
> get to the styrofoam. the area has a bunch of trees that will be
> removed, stumps pulled and etc. I'm wondering if the existing soild can
> be used or if i have to get some gravel
>
It depends. What will be living in the shed? Tractors, woodshop, or just
light storage? The heavier the contents, the heavier the slab needs to be.
What sort of shed? Pole barn, prefab metal, or stick-built? Pole barns, the
poles act as the foundation, anything else and you need proper footers and
stub masonry walls to catch the weight of the structure. (Building anything
on a flat slab, no matter how strong, is a bad idea for a lot of reasons.)
What are the local soil and water conditions? Be a damn shame if a seasonal
spring popped up in the middle of the footprint. Yeah, a layer of gravel and
sand under the slab is usually called for. I'm not expert enough to address
the styro- I thought that was only common in heated structures. Local
concrete flatwork company, maybe even the actual concrete company, could
probably tell you the usual practices in your area. You definitely want to
get to undisturbed soil below the removed trees, and add back from there.
Settling is a bitch.
40x80 is a damn big shed, and a lot of money. IMHO, it is worth paying the
few hundred extra for a site survey and actual engineering drawings. If this
is from one of the big pre-fab companies, they probably have a dealer nearby
that performs that service. If I was building that big, I would use real
footers, and make the slab strong enough for whatever would fit in there,
which is largely a function of clear headroom, overhead door size, and road
access. Even if you don't need the extra weight rating, a shed strong enough
for tractors or RVs would be a good selling point for next owner, while a
pole barn with a thin floor to just keep the mud out may be useless to them.
I would run the footer under the opening for the big door, and put a proper
sloped apron in- that is a real common spot for frost heave problems to
start, from water getting under an unsupported edge of a slab.
By the way- when you do the foundation, stub in conduits for utilities, even
if you don't plan to install them anytime soon. Power, water, phone, etc.
They are a LOT easier and cheaper to do at the start. And if this is going
to be a 'guys barn', sewer stubs for a 3/4 bath are a real nice thing to
have, too. SWMBO hates grease and sawdust tracked back into the house.
aem sends...
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Posted by Tater on November 21, 2006, 7:12 pm
aemeijers@att.net wrote:
> >I live in mid wisconsin and am planning on a 40x80' shed and would like
> > to know what i should be doing for the foundation. I am thinking of
> > putting a 40x40 concrete slab and would like to ensure that frost heave
> > does not dammage it.
> >
> It depends. What will be living in the shed?
hoo boy, i try to avoid answering this question, because everyone
starts labeling me as a nut.
it's going to be a workshop for building rockets. big rockets. the
40x40 concrete part will be the workshop proper, plus room for training
simulators and and a conference room. nominaly heated, maybe solar,
maybe wind power, maybe firewood(still in the estimation stages), plus
a small office. first few years it will be up it will not be insulated,
but plan on doing so later.
the dirt floor 40x40 area will be indoor parking for support vehicles,
trailers, and other stuff that I'd like out of the rain but doesnt need
to be off the dirt.
> What sort of shed? Pole barn, prefab metal, or stick-built?
depends. I am leaning towards pole barn, as i can just throw a little
money at it and it'll get done. even at 40x80 tens of thousands of
dollars is little money compared to stick built. still shopping for
estimates, anyone here can feel free to change my mind.
> What are the local soil and water conditions?
site is at top of hill in the area. good slope, part of property
orginaly had old shed, now crumbling ruins (a century does that you
know) not too worried about drainage issues. current slope is like 1
foot every 20-40ft, was planning on using tractor with blade to pull
stumps, then push dirt around to level off then get a dumptruck or two
of fill if needed
> I'm not expert enough to address
> the styro- I thought that was only common in heated structures.
as you can see others in the thread pointed out "frost-protected
shallow foundations" appears what the one contractor was talking about.
> Local
> concrete flatwork company, maybe even the actual concrete company, could
> probably tell you the usual practices in your area.
humph! I have a real hard time around here with the local experts.
first plumber i hired before i bought the land could not find the well
and septic, which i found after 20 minutes looking. other experts I've
had to hire to satisfy the bank have not been experts in my opinion.
hence my reason for looking on the net.
> You definitely want to
> get to undisturbed soil below the removed trees, and add back from there.
> Settling is a bitch.
ya, I can see the nightmares already. one of the reasons why i am
asking about this stuff now rather when i am about to commit tens of
thousands of dollars on this
> 40x80 is a damn big shed, and a lot of money. IMHO, it is worth paying the
> few hundred extra for a site survey and actual engineering drawings.
I've worked with engineers before, on other projects, see above opinion
about experts.
> If this
> is from one of the big pre-fab companies, they probably have a dealer nearby
> that performs that service. If I was building that big, I would use real
> footers, and make the slab strong enough for whatever would fit in there,
> which is largely a function of clear headroom, overhead door size, and road
> access.
single story, maybe 10ft to the rafters, one man door, one vehicle
door(still contemplating size and style, like airplane hangar door
idea) nothing real big in there, not even sure that anything with a
footprint heavier than my pickup truck will be in there, and that'll be
on the dirt section....
> Even if you don't need the extra weight rating, a shed strong enough
> for tractors or RVs would be a good selling point for next owner, while a
> pole barn with a thin floor to just keep the mud out may be useless to them.
moot point, I plan on dying here. i've moved too many times in my life.
not again.
> I would run the footer under the opening for the big door, and put a proper
> sloped apron in- that is a real common spot for frost heave problems to
> start, from water getting under an unsupported edge of a slab.
I was thinking to avoid such a problem would be to run a lot of
drainage pipe, and maybe even run radiant heating into the slab. not
for heating, but the keep frost from forming. plan on putting up a
couple of windplants and maybe a solar panel or two, so energy
*shouldn't* be an issue
> By the way- when you do the foundation, stub in conduits for utilities, even
> if you don't plan to install them anytime soon. Power, water, phone, etc.
> They are a LOT easier and cheaper to do at the start. And if this is going
> to be a 'guys barn', sewer stubs for a 3/4 bath are a real nice thing to
> have, too. SWMBO hates grease and sawdust tracked back into the house.
two explanations.....(yer gonna love this)
1)power is from overhead line, pole will be nearer to shed than house.
water and sewer are a real big issue as the septic is on the opposite
side of the house, but the well is nearby, but not the feed from the
house (major plumbing issue, might be done anyway). cordless phone will
be within range, as would be wireless network.
2)and yes, this is a "guys shop" and SWMBO wont mind, even without the
3/4 bath.
why?
we bought this house together, it originally was a duplex. she has the
upstairs, and the downstairs is MINE. maybe one of the more odd
compromises, but it works.
Tater
Wxxxx stetson ave
Dungeon T
(SWMBO lives in penthouse K, guess the first letter of HER name<g>)
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Posted by Goedjn on November 22, 2006, 11:47 am
>
>aemeijers@att.net wrote:
>> >I live in mid wisconsin and am planning on a 40x80' shed and would like
>> > to know what i should be doing for the foundation. I am thinking of
>> > putting a 40x40 concrete slab and would like to ensure that frost heave
>> > does not dammage it.
>> >
>> It depends. What will be living in the shed?
>
>hoo boy, i try to avoid answering this question, because everyone
>starts labeling me as a nut.
>
>it's going to be a workshop for building rockets. big rockets. the
>40x40 concrete part will be the workshop proper, plus room for training
>simulators and and a conference room. nominaly heated, maybe solar,
Well.. What you probably OUGHT to do is
bulldoze out a level spot, lay drainpipe
around the perimeter and every 10' or so
throughout the interior, led out to daylight,
cover that with gravel, sand, and/or the
dirt you took out (depending on what it's
made out of), and then pour the slab on
top of that.
Are you sure you want the workshop and the
other occupied spaces in the same building?
I'd want a fairly substantial earth berm
between me and the workshop, myself.
And blow-out panels in the roof and far wall,
and an explosion suppression system.
Depending on exactly how big a rocket
you're talking about, you may want
at least one section of the slab poured
thicker than usual.. (which would be 4")
possibly by as much as 24" think, else
what are you planning to bolt the test
cradle to?
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