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retaining wall & drainage behind it

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retaining wall & drainage behind it tim 09-05-2006
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Posted by on September 5, 2006, 11:59 pm
My goal is to remove the slope that ends about a foot from the side of
my barn which will allow for easier access around that side of the barn
as well as drainage. My plan is to excavate the dirt up to 8ft from the
barn wall and install a rock wall with drainage behind it. The wall
will vary in height - at most 36" and allow the rain water to run into
the drain and out to my ditch. The total length of the wall will be
roughly 60ft. I was planning on excavating to level (if not slightly
higher at the barn wall) and then dig down tocreating a 12" deep trench
12" wide against the earth wall. In the trench, I will lay down a
couple inches of drainrock and then lay in the perfpipe (planning on
4"-6" pvc) fill with some more drain rock a few inches higher then lay
down some mesh to keep dirt out of the pipe holes, then backfill with
more drainrock. At this point, I would lay the first course of basalt
quarry rock (2 man small's) just in front of the trench and backfill
with mixed 5/8 minus. i would then repeat this setting the next course
back somewhat towards the slope. More backfill and so on until the 36"
height is met.

My questions are how does this plan sound overall, is there anything
you would do differently or add? Should I add any sort of landscape
cloth behind the rocks or plastic to keep the water from seeping out or
would that create too much pressure? On a wall of this height should I
place any rocks perpendicular that would sit back to the ground
formation and backfill over them? I guess this should add more strength
to the wall..

Thanks for any feedback,
bigballer


Posted by Michael Daly on September 6, 2006, 12:53 am
tim@wetfoot.net wrote:

> My questions are how does this plan sound overall, is there anything
> you would do differently or add? Should I add any sort of landscape
> cloth behind the rocks or plastic to keep the water from seeping out or
> would that create too much pressure? On a wall of this height should I
> place any rocks perpendicular that would sit back to the ground
> formation and backfill over them? I guess this should add more strength
> to the wall..

What you need to do depends on the slope and the type of soil. It can also
depend on the water table depth and rainfall.

If you build a retaining wall to hold up flat-topped soil, you are only holding
up the soil closest to the wall. If the surface is sloped enough, however, you
are holding up a potentially big chunk of the hill.

If the soil is prone to loosen up a lot when wet, then it could come down. At
one extreme, soils can liquify in an earth tremor and your wall has to be a dam.
I doubt you have that situation, but you have to consider that.

Removing the toe of a slope can cause the water to drain and wash out the base
behind your wall. This is especially true if the water table is usually high.
Another worst case scenario, but a vertical filter fabric can avoid some of that.

Buttressing the wall into the hill is always a good idea IMNSHO. That or some
kind of crib arrangement makes for a more solid wall. It can be cheap insurance.

A phone call to a local foundations engineer could tell you if there are problem
soils in your area. If not, you plan seems relatively sound. If the hill is
quite steep, though, you might want a pro to look at it.

Mike



Posted by on September 6, 2006, 2:16 am

Michael Daly wrote:
> tim@wetfoot.net wrote:
>
> > My questions are how does this plan sound overall, is there anything
> > you would do differently or add? Should I add any sort of landscape
> > cloth behind the rocks or plastic to keep the water from seeping out or
> > would that create too much pressure? On a wall of this height should I
> > place any rocks perpendicular that would sit back to the ground
> > formation and backfill over them? I guess this should add more strength
> > to the wall..
>
> What you need to do depends on the slope and the type of soil. It can also
> depend on the water table depth and rainfall.

This is the pacific NW so plenty of rain falls in winter, though now
it's dry 2 feet below the surface. Last winter it seemed water was
coming out of the toe about a foot lower then grade.

>
> If you build a retaining wall to hold up flat-topped soil, you are only holding
> up the soil closest to the wall. If the surface is sloped enough, however, you
> are holding up a potentially big chunk of the hill.

makes sense, my property has a natural slope coming down from the hill
above

> If the soil is prone to loosen up a lot when wet, then it could come down. At
> one extreme, soils can liquify in an earth tremor and your wall has to be a
dam.
> I doubt you have that situation, but you have to consider that.

not sure how loose it gets but it can rain quite alot late fall, winter
and early spring. ;-)

> Removing the toe of a slope can cause the water to drain and wash out the base
> behind your wall. This is especially true if the water table is usually high.
> Another worst case scenario, but a vertical filter fabric can avoid some of
that.

is a vertical fabric something like whats shown in the last picture on
this page? - http://www.millerengrs.com/rock_walls.htm

> Buttressing the wall into the hill is always a good idea IMNSHO. That or some
> kind of crib arrangement makes for a more solid wall. It can be cheap
insurance.

I'm guessing buttressing is laying a few of the rocks perpendicular to
the run of the wall and into the hill. how would you crib the rocks?

> A phone call to a local foundations engineer could tell you if there are
problem
> soils in your area. If not, you plan seems relatively sound. If the hill is
> quite steep, though, you might want a pro to look at it.

was considering this as well, will have one come out and give me an
assesment.

Thanks!

> Mike


Posted by Michael Daly on September 6, 2006, 11:55 am
tim@wetfoot.net wrote:

> This is the pacific NW so plenty of rain falls in winter, though now
> it's dry 2 feet below the surface. Last winter it seemed water was
> coming out of the toe about a foot lower then grade.

You'd probably want to make sure a filter fabric is behind the drainage just in
case. That will hold back the finer material and keep it from washing away and
keep the drainage crushed stone from clogging.

> is a vertical fabric something like whats shown in the last picture on
> this page? - http://www.millerengrs.com/rock_walls.htm

Yes. You'll see it used in a lot of places - highways construction for example
- whenever they want to drain. If you see a recently constructed rock wall, you
can often see a bit of fabric sticking up a couple of inches at the top.

> I'm guessing buttressing is laying a few of the rocks perpendicular to
> the run of the wall and into the hill.

Yes - interlock the rock like brickwork if possible.

> how would you crib the rocks?

Sorry, I should have been clear - a crib would be made using wood or concrete
http://www.phigroup.co.uk/products/rw/andacrib.htm. Not what you're planning,
but something I consider a good idea.

Mike

Posted by on September 6, 2006, 2:39 am

Michael Daly wrote:
> tim@wetfoot.net wrote:
>
> > My questions are how does this plan sound overall, is there anything
> > you would do differently or add? Should I add any sort of landscape
> > cloth behind the rocks or plastic to keep the water from seeping out or
> > would that create too much pressure? On a wall of this height should I
> > place any rocks perpendicular that would sit back to the ground
> > formation and backfill over them? I guess this should add more strength
> > to the wall..
>
> What you need to do depends on the slope and the type of soil. It can also
> depend on the water table depth and rainfall.

This is the pacific NW so plenty of rain falls in winter, though now
it's dry 2 feet below the surface. Last winter it seemed water was
coming out of the toe about a foot lower then grade.

>
> If you build a retaining wall to hold up flat-topped soil, you are only holding
> up the soil closest to the wall. If the surface is sloped enough, however, you
> are holding up a potentially big chunk of the hill.

makes sense, my property has a natural slope coming down from the hill
above

> If the soil is prone to loosen up a lot when wet, then it could come down. At
> one extreme, soils can liquify in an earth tremor and your wall has to be a
dam.
> I doubt you have that situation, but you have to consider that.

not sure how loose it gets but it can rain quite alot late fall, winter
and early spring. ;-)

> Removing the toe of a slope can cause the water to drain and wash out the base
> behind your wall. This is especially true if the water table is usually high.
> Another worst case scenario, but a vertical filter fabric can avoid some of
that.

is a vertical fabric something like whats shown in the last picture on
this page? - http://www.millerengrs.com/rock_walls.htm

> Buttressing the wall into the hill is always a good idea IMNSHO. That or some
> kind of crib arrangement makes for a more solid wall. It can be cheap
insurance.

I'm guessing buttressing is laying a few of the rocks perpendicular to
the run of the wall and into the hill. how would you crib the rocks?

> A phone call to a local foundations engineer could tell you if there are
problem
> soils in your area. If not, you plan seems relatively sound. If the hill is
> quite steep, though, you might want a pro to look at it.

was considering this as well, will have one come out and give me an
assesment.

Thanks!

> Mike


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