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surge protectors karsan 06-11-2006
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Posted by Pete C. on June 11, 2006, 11:17 pm
w_tom wrote:
>
> They are called shunt mode protectors. They work by earthing a
> destructive transient such as a direct lighting strike and then remain
> functional. If a 'whole house' protector could not earth that
> transient, then what good willl a plug-in protector do trying to earth
> to the same ground?

The fact that they will operate in parallel. The transient will rise to
the trigger point of all the suppresser devices and all will clamp the
line. If there is sufficient clamping capacity the differential voltage
will be substantially reduced.

>
> So instead some assume plug-in protectors sit between the surge and
> an appliance to block or stop surges. Bull. Will that silly little
> less than one inch component stop what 3 miles of sky could not?
> Effective protection was never about stopping or absorbing surges.
> Effective protection is about diverting - shunting - a destructive
> transient to earth. Divert - not stop or absorb.

As I noted, nothing is going to stop a direct strike. Most strikes
aren't direct however and are primarily inductive pickup from a nearby
strike and therefore reduced to a much more manageable level.

>
> Protector amperage is additive IF all protectors have a same 'low
> impedance' connection. And that is the problem. Things such as sharp
> wire bends, long distances, splices, etc all increase that wire
> impedance. Now a plug-in protector has too much impedance. Instead of
> seeking earth via safety ground wire, that transient may seek earth
> through an adjacent appliance and phone line. This is how modems are
> so easily damaged. Incoming on AC electric. Through an adjacent
> protector. Into comptuer motherboard and modem. Out to earth ground
> via phone line. Notice where most modem destructive transients come
> from.

Again for a direct hit. For a surge of the level of the much more common
inductively coupled strike that does not apply.

>
> Having learned this by tracing destructive surges, then what is a
> most typically damaged component? The path through adjacent protector,
> through modem (its DAA section), is often via a transistor that drives
> an off-hook relay. The failure message is "No Dialtone Detected".
> Incoming on AC. Through that transistor and off-hook relay. To earth,
> destructively, via phone line and phone line surge protector.

The MOVs that are located adjacent to the phone line connector on a
quality modem should clamp the surge. The drive to the off hook relay is
also not electrically connected to the line, nor is most of the rest of
the modem. The DAA transformer, ring detect optoisolator and hook switch
relay are about all that is connected to the line.

>
> Why did damage result? A transient was not earthed BEFORE it could
> enter the building.

There is absolutely nothing magic about the building. The building wall
is no different than the wall of an electrical panel, or the case of a
computer.

One thing you do buy by clamping the surge as far out as possible is to
keep the current path of the clamped surge further away from other wires
which helps limit further inductive coupling.

>
> A surge protector basically shunts - connects all wires together
> during a transient. If that wire makes a low impedance connection to
> earth, then the transient is earthed. No damage. But plug-in
> protectors don't have a good earthing connection. Above is one
> example; demonstrated by tracing surges and replacing transistor. A
> protector too close to transistors and too far from earth ground can
> even contribute to damage of the adjacent (and powered off) appliance.
> An effective protector makes a 'less than 10 foot' connection to the
> building's earth ground.

Again, reducing the current path and the potential for further inductive
coupling.

>
> Ineffective protectors (power strip and UPS) are easily identified.
> 1) No dedicated earthing wire. 2) Manufacturer does not even discuss
> earthing. Look at your protector. Does it meet these criteria for
> ineffective protector?

As I noted, every suppresser on the line adds some level of protection.
Suppressers at the electric service entrance panel, the CATV and telco
demarcs all with short connections to a proper grounding electrode are
the first line of defense.

Any suppressers downstream provide further protection against
inductively coupled surges which don't have to come through the service
entrance conductors and residual surges past what the primary
suppressers were able to clamp. Also for #1, that third pin on the power
plug *is* a dedicated earthing wire.

>
> What does a telephone company do to protect their $multimillion
> switching computer? Its computer connects to overhead wires everywhere
> in town. Why do they not provide service for a whole week while
> replacing that computer? Because the telco installs 'whole house' type
> protectors on every single wire of every cable that enters the
> building. Tehcnology even discussed in an Oct 1960 Bell System
> Technical Journal article - because the technology is that old and that
> well proven. An effective protector is ideally 50 meters from
> transistors AND as close as possible to earth ground. That 50 meter
> separation adds to protection. But most important is what makes that
> 'whole house' type protectors effective. A low impedance - meaning
> short - connection to a building's single point *earth ground*. Not
> only is the connection short. Every protector is earthed to a same
> ground - the single point earth ground.

Yes, the closer you can locate the suppressers to the grounding
electrode the more effective they can be. Those grounding electrodes are
also rarely a single point ground particularly in a utility application.
More commonly they will be a multipoint electrode array bonded together
with quite heavy conductors, often with exothermic welded connections.

The telco is also a good example since it employs multiple stages of
protection from the primary suppressers at the drop entrance to the
suppressers on the SLIC cards, the suppressers on the power system, etc.
More is better for the most part.

>
> For residential protection, manufacturers with responsible brand
> names provide effective 'whole house' protectors. Siemens,
> Cutler-Hammer, Square D, Leviton, Intermatic, and GE all sell 'whole
> house' protectors that are available in Home Depot, Lowes, and
> electrical supply houses. These protectors have a dedicated earthing
> wire. These protectors costs tens of times less money per protected
> appliance. And these protectors are properly sized.

Again these should be the first line of defense along with quality
suppressers at the telco and CATV demarcs. This does not mean that
additional suppressers are of no value as lightning can induce surges in
the building wiring inside the house just as easily as outside.

>
> Why properly sized? Many plug-in protectors are so grossly
> undersized (MOVs undersized; too few joules) as to vaporize during a
> surge. Vaporized MOV provided ineffective protection. But its smoke
> promotes more sales. Effective protectors, instead, earth direct
> lightning strikes and remain functional. A human never knows that when
> a properly sized protector is doing protection. Grossly undersized
> plug-in protectors that vaporize and smoke will be recommended by the
> naive. So many plug-in protectors are undersized - to promote sales
> rather than provide effective protection.
>

I've never seen a vaporized MOV of any size. I have seen a few that have
failed and cracked after being subjected to substantial surges. If you
review the joule ratings of the various MOVs and gas discharge arrestors
you find in typical small suppressers you'll see that their ratings are
not at all far behind those of the common whole house suppressers. Some
of the quite expensive service entrance suppressers intended for
commercial services have higher ratings, but not the common ones.

> Earthing - at minimum, the building must conform to post 1990
> National Electrical Code earthing. Enhanced earthing means a protector
> will be even more effective. And so we say, "a protector is only as
> effective as its earth ground." What do those plug-in power strip and
> UPS protectors manufacturers not even discuss? Earthing. Where is
> that dedicated earthing wire? Did they just forget? Or do they hope
> you never learn why earthing is so essential?

Refer you to the dedicated grounding (earthing) conductor provided to
every electrical device in a residence. The dedicated third pin on a
NEMA 5-15 (or 5-20 or 5-xx, 6-xx, etc.) receptacle.

>
> Some incoming wires are earthed using a protector. Telco provides a
> 'whole house' protector where their wire enters your building. But
> again, that protector will only be as effective as its earth ground.
> Did you (or your builder) provide that essential earthing connection?
> Cable needs no protector. Its ground block must connect directly to
> the same earth ground - a 'less than 10 foot' connection. Every
> incoming wire must be earthed directly or through a 'whole house'
> protectors to the single point earth ground.

Cable is not required by any code to have anything but the ground block
at the demarc, however this only grounds (earths) the shield of the
coax. The coax center conductor still can and often does convey
significant surges into the premises. A quality coax surge suppresser
will clamp surges on the center conductor to ground as well.

>
> Ineffective protector manufactures and those who promote them hope
> you never learn what a shunt mode protector does: makes a low impedance
> connection to earth. No earth ground means no effective protection.

Again, every single one of those suppressers has an earth ground
connection. They wouldn't pass code and UL listing requirements if they
didn't.

> So where is that earthing connection in a plug-in UPS?

The grounding pin of the NEMA 5-15 plug on the UPS.

> Notice that
> their own numerical specifications don't even define protection? How's
> that for a damning overlooked fact.

The specifications for my UPS indicate the clamping voltage and joule
rating of the suppresser devices.

>
> Appliances already contain internal protection.

Some appliances do, many do not. Don't recall the last time I saw any
suppression devices in a toaster or a blender.

> Protection that can
> be overwhelmed if destructive transients are not earthed where wires
> enter the building. Earthing is why 'whole house' protectors are so
> effective. No earth ground (such as with plug-in protectors) means no
> effective protection.

Again you are 100% incorrect, any plug in suppresser with a three prong
plug *does* have an earth ground. What the heck do you think NEC article
250 is all about? NEC articles 280 and 285 relate to surge arrestors and
transient voltage surge suppressers BTW.

>
> If you don't earth incoming transients such as the direct lighting
> strike, then protection inside that appliance can be overwhelmed;
> appliance damaged. Plug-in protectors can even provide more
> destructive paths through an adjacent appliance.

If you have a direct lightning strike on your service entrance drop or
service feeder on the poles, your glorious whole house suppresser will
be in pieces along with your entire service panel.

Pete C.

Posted by Tom Horne, Electrician on June 12, 2006, 12:23 am
Pete C. wrote:
> w_tom wrote:
>> They are called shunt mode protectors. They work by earthing a
>> destructive transient such as a direct lighting strike and then remain
>> functional. If a 'whole house' protector could not earth that
>> transient, then what good willl a plug-in protector do trying to earth
>> to the same ground?
>
> The fact that they will operate in parallel. The transient will rise to
> the trigger point of all the suppresser devices and all will clamp the
> line. If there is sufficient clamping capacity the differential voltage
> will be substantially reduced.
>
>> So instead some assume plug-in protectors sit between the surge and
>> an appliance to block or stop surges. Bull. Will that silly little
>> less than one inch component stop what 3 miles of sky could not?
>> Effective protection was never about stopping or absorbing surges.
>> Effective protection is about diverting - shunting - a destructive
>> transient to earth. Divert - not stop or absorb.
>
> As I noted, nothing is going to stop a direct strike. Most strikes
> aren't direct however and are primarily inductive pickup from a nearby
> strike and therefore reduced to a much more manageable level.
>
>> Protector amperage is additive IF all protectors have a same 'low
>> impedance' connection. And that is the problem. Things such as sharp
>> wire bends, long distances, splices, etc all increase that wire
>> impedance. Now a plug-in protector has too much impedance. Instead of
>> seeking earth via safety ground wire, that transient may seek earth
>> through an adjacent appliance and phone line. This is how modems are
>> so easily damaged. Incoming on AC electric. Through an adjacent
>> protector. Into comptuer motherboard and modem. Out to earth ground
>> via phone line. Notice where most modem destructive transients come
>> from.
>
> Again for a direct hit. For a surge of the level of the much more common
> inductively coupled strike that does not apply.
>
>> Having learned this by tracing destructive surges, then what is a
>> most typically damaged component? The path through adjacent protector,
>> through modem (its DAA section), is often via a transistor that drives
>> an off-hook relay. The failure message is "No Dialtone Detected".
>> Incoming on AC. Through that transistor and off-hook relay. To earth,
>> destructively, via phone line and phone line surge protector.
>
> The MOVs that are located adjacent to the phone line connector on a
> quality modem should clamp the surge. The drive to the off hook relay is
> also not electrically connected to the line, nor is most of the rest of
> the modem. The DAA transformer, ring detect optoisolator and hook switch
> relay are about all that is connected to the line.
>
>> Why did damage result? A transient was not earthed BEFORE it could
>> enter the building.
>
> There is absolutely nothing magic about the building. The building wall
> is no different than the wall of an electrical panel, or the case of a
> computer.
>
> One thing you do buy by clamping the surge as far out as possible is to
> keep the current path of the clamped surge further away from other wires
> which helps limit further inductive coupling.
>
>> A surge protector basically shunts - connects all wires together
>> during a transient. If that wire makes a low impedance connection to
>> earth, then the transient is earthed. No damage. But plug-in
>> protectors don't have a good earthing connection. Above is one
>> example; demonstrated by tracing surges and replacing transistor. A
>> protector too close to transistors and too far from earth ground can
>> even contribute to damage of the adjacent (and powered off) appliance.
>> An effective protector makes a 'less than 10 foot' connection to the
>> building's earth ground.
>
> Again, reducing the current path and the potential for further inductive
> coupling.
>
>> Ineffective protectors (power strip and UPS) are easily identified.
>> 1) No dedicated earthing wire. 2) Manufacturer does not even discuss
>> earthing. Look at your protector. Does it meet these criteria for
>> ineffective protector?
>
> As I noted, every suppresser on the line adds some level of protection.
> Suppressers at the electric service entrance panel, the CATV and telco
> demarcs all with short connections to a proper grounding electrode are
> the first line of defense.
>
> Any suppressers downstream provide further protection against
> inductively coupled surges which don't have to come through the service
> entrance conductors and residual surges past what the primary
> suppressers were able to clamp. Also for #1, that third pin on the power
> plug *is* a dedicated earthing wire.
>
>> What does a telephone company do to protect their $multimillion
>> switching computer? Its computer connects to overhead wires everywhere
>> in town. Why do they not provide service for a whole week while
>> replacing that computer? Because the telco installs 'whole house' type
>> protectors on every single wire of every cable that enters the
>> building. Tehcnology even discussed in an Oct 1960 Bell System
>> Technical Journal article - because the technology is that old and that
>> well proven. An effective protector is ideally 50 meters from
>> transistors AND as close as possible to earth ground. That 50 meter
>> separation adds to protection. But most important is what makes that
>> 'whole house' type protectors effective. A low impedance - meaning
>> short - connection to a building's single point *earth ground*. Not
>> only is the connection short. Every protector is earthed to a same
>> ground - the single point earth ground.
>
> Yes, the closer you can locate the suppressers to the grounding
> electrode the more effective they can be. Those grounding electrodes are
> also rarely a single point ground particularly in a utility application.
> More commonly they will be a multipoint electrode array bonded together
> with quite heavy conductors, often with exothermic welded connections.
>
> The telco is also a good example since it employs multiple stages of
> protection from the primary suppressers at the drop entrance to the
> suppressers on the SLIC cards, the suppressers on the power system, etc.
> More is better for the most part.
>
>> For residential protection, manufacturers with responsible brand
>> names provide effective 'whole house' protectors. Siemens,
>> Cutler-Hammer, Square D, Leviton, Intermatic, and GE all sell 'whole
>> house' protectors that are available in Home Depot, Lowes, and
>> electrical supply houses. These protectors have a dedicated earthing
>> wire. These protectors costs tens of times less money per protected
>> appliance. And these protectors are properly sized.
>
> Again these should be the first line of defense along with quality
> suppressers at the telco and CATV demarcs. This does not mean that
> additional suppressers are of no value as lightning can induce surges in
> the building wiring inside the house just as easily as outside.
>
>> Why properly sized? Many plug-in protectors are so grossly
>> undersized (MOVs undersized; too few joules) as to vaporize during a
>> surge. Vaporized MOV provided ineffective protection. But its smoke
>> promotes more sales. Effective protectors, instead, earth direct
>> lightning strikes and remain functional. A human never knows that when
>> a properly sized protector is doing protection. Grossly undersized
>> plug-in protectors that vaporize and smoke will be recommended by the
>> naive. So many plug-in protectors are undersized - to promote sales
>> rather than provide effective protection.
>>
>
> I've never seen a vaporized MOV of any size. I have seen a few that have
> failed and cracked after being subjected to substantial surges. If you
> review the joule ratings of the various MOVs and gas discharge arrestors
> you find in typical small suppressers you'll see that their ratings are
> not at all far behind those of the common whole house suppressers. Some
> of the quite expensive service entrance suppressers intended for
> commercial services have higher ratings, but not the common ones.
>
>> Earthing - at minimum, the building must conform to post 1990
>> National Electrical Code earthing. Enhanced earthing means a protector
>> will be even more effective. And so we say, "a protector is only as
>> effective as its earth ground." What do those plug-in power strip and
>> UPS protectors manufacturers not even discuss? Earthing. Where is
>> that dedicated earthing wire? Did they just forget? Or do they hope
>> you never learn why earthing is so essential?
>
> Refer you to the dedicated grounding (earthing) conductor provided to
> every electrical device in a residence. The dedicated third pin on a
> NEMA 5-15 (or 5-20 or 5-xx, 6-xx, etc.) receptacle.
>
>> Some incoming wires are earthed using a protector. Telco provides a
>> 'whole house' protector where their wire enters your building. But
>> again, that protector will only be as effective as its earth ground.
>> Did you (or your builder) provide that essential earthing connection?
>> Cable needs no protector. Its ground block must connect directly to
>> the same earth ground - a 'less than 10 foot' connection. Every
>> incoming wire must be earthed directly or through a 'whole house'
>> protectors to the single point earth ground.
>
> Cable is not required by any code to have anything but the ground block
> at the demarc, however this only grounds (earths) the shield of the
> coax. The coax center conductor still can and often does convey
> significant surges into the premises. A quality coax surge suppresser
> will clamp surges on the center conductor to ground as well.
>
>> Ineffective protector manufactures and those who promote them hope
>> you never learn what a shunt mode protector does: makes a low impedance
>> connection to earth. No earth ground means no effective protection.
>
> Again, every single one of those suppressers has an earth ground
> connection. They wouldn't pass code and UL listing requirements if they
> didn't.
>
>> So where is that earthing connection in a plug-in UPS?
>
> The grounding pin of the NEMA 5-15 plug on the UPS.
>
>> Notice that
>> their own numerical specifications don't even define protection? How's
>> that for a damning overlooked fact.
>
> The specifications for my UPS indicate the clamping voltage and joule
> rating of the suppresser devices.
>
>> Appliances already contain internal protection.
>
> Some appliances do, many do not. Don't recall the last time I saw any
> suppression devices in a toaster or a blender.
>
>> Protection that can
>> be overwhelmed if destructive transients are not earthed where wires
>> enter the building. Earthing is why 'whole house' protectors are so
>> effective. No earth ground (such as with plug-in protectors) means no
>> effective protection.
>
> Again you are 100% incorrect, any plug in suppresser with a three prong
> plug *does* have an earth ground. What the heck do you think NEC article
> 250 is all about? NEC articles 280 and 285 relate to surge arrestors and
> transient voltage surge suppressers BTW.
>
>> If you don't earth incoming transients such as the direct lighting
>> strike, then protection inside that appliance can be overwhelmed;
>> appliance damaged. Plug-in protectors can even provide more
>> destructive paths through an adjacent appliance.
>
> If you have a direct lightning strike on your service entrance drop or
> service feeder on the poles, your glorious whole house suppresser will
> be in pieces along with your entire service panel.
>
> Pete C.

I work as a communications wireman whenever the electrical service
industry gets too slow. I have built alternative powered and utility
powered radio equipment shelters in remote places from Alaska to the
Argentine pampas. These room sized buildings are struck quite regularly
by lightning without loosing a single circuit. The inevitability of
damage secondary to a direct strike is a myth. If you are willing to
invest the necessary effort damage can be averted. Most home owners
will not find it cost effective to install fully effective lightning
protection.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

Posted by w_tom on June 13, 2006, 1:28 am
Numerous points that make assumptions based in a world where
impedance does not exist - where only resistance exists.

First, nothing will stop a direct strike. But direct strikes
routinely do no damage when they are diverted. Major difference
between stopping (which plug-in protectors hope you will assume) and
diverting which is standard where direct lightning strikes do not
damage. Again, 25 direct strikes annually to electronics atop the
Empire State Building; 40 annually to the WTC - and electronics not
damaged. It is routine to earth direct strikes without damage -
because we don't stop a direct strike. We divert it to earth.

Inductive transients? Well put some numbers to them. I assume
this is about a nearby lightning strike to a long wire antenna. Well
that nearby strike may induce a few thousand volts onto that antenna.
Then we connect an NE-2 (neon glow lamp) from that antenna to earth.
Because that neon glow lamp conducts only milliamps, then that
thousands volts on antenna is now less than 60 volts. IOW induced
transients are that trivial. So trivial as to be made irrelevant by
protection inside all appliances. And yet, even industry standards of
30+ years ago (i.e. CBEMA) defined protection that was inside all
electronic appliances even that long ago. It takes so little to make
induced transients irrelevant. But it is the direct strike that causes
damage.

You did not see protector devices inside the blender? You were not
looking like an engineer? Why do you think wire was heavier gauge than
necessary? You are making a classic mistake. You have assumed
protector is as specific device. Protection is not necessary achieved
by a protector. Protection is something in the engineering. You are
instead looking for a specific device rather than first learning the
design. Meanwhile, we were discussing electronics appliances - not
blenders that have no electronics.

Is "drive to the off hook relay ... also not electrically connected
to the line, nor is most of the rest of the modem"? First go to data
sheets. That coil inside a modem off hook relay does electrically
connect to its wiper as those datasheets demonstrate. Not at 100
volts. But then even floors and wall paints become conductive during
these transients. Datasheet for that off-hook relay even states what
voltage causes a coil to connect to relay wiper. That is how modems
are so often damaged - as we also demonstrated when constructing
massive relay switching drawers in test equipment to connect and
disconnect those voltages. How are modems damaged? Get those
datasheets. Even optocouplers have breakdown voltages. When that
off-hook relay coil breakdown voltage is exceeded, then a destructive
transient passes through PNP transistor, through relay, and to earth
ground via phone line. Everything has a breakdown voltage. What we
assume is not conductive at trivial low voltages become a perfect
conductor at higher voltage.

Defined was how a modem is damaged when an AC electric line surge
finds earth ground via modems DAA section, phone line, and earthed
'whole house' protector.

Try to make two ends of a fluorescent lamp conduct with an ohm meter.
No connection. Then why do so few volts conduct current across that
tube when tube is glowing? Same principle. That relay coil and relay
wiper are electrically connected during a surge which is why we so
routinely repaired modems by replacing a surge damaged PNP driver
transistor. Surge incoming on AC lines and outgoing on phone line. To
be damage, electronics must have both an incoming and outgoing path.
Surges do not enter on phone line, ignore phone line 'whole house'
protector, crash on a modem, and stop. Electricity just does not work
that way.

As described in another post is wire impedance. Using Bud's
citations that demonstrate how plug-in protectors can fail to provide
protection: two TVs sharing a plug-in protector are at 8000 volts.
How can this be when those plug-in protectors are grounded by three
prong electrical connection to breaker box? Because one end of that
safety ground wire is at near zero volts and the other end is at 8000
volts - wire impedance. How can one end of a wire be at 8000 volts and
the other end at near zero volts? Welcome to a basic electrical
principle that also explains why different parts of a transmitting
antenna wire are at different voltages.

A 50 foot AC electric ground wire is maybe 0.2 ohms resistance. But
that same ground wire is maybe 120 ohms impedance to a surge. A
trivial 100 amp surge enters wall receptacle. 120 ohms times 100 amps
is a voltage somewhere below 12,000 volts. Same reason why those two
TVs can be at 8000 volts during a surge. Same reason why earthing must
be 'less than 10 feet' to single point earth ground. But then this is
old and well proven concepts - wire impedance.

More reasons why that 50 foot AC electric wire has even higher
impedance and creates other surge related problems. Sharp bends.
Splices. Bundled with other wires thereby induced transients on those
other wires. Wall receptacle is not an earth ground. Wall receptacle
is a safety ground. Wire impedance is why that wall receptacle is not
sufficient for earthing.

Yes appliances do have internal protection as required by industry
standards. Once some appliances (ie Apple II) installed those
protectors. No longer. MOVs inside the computer were as not effective
as they would be on its power cord - for so many reasons - including
too far from earth ground.

You have not seen MOVs vaporize? Get 30+ years experience with this
technology to see it. Some vaporized MOVs looked ominously ghostly.
Only left were two leads. Nothing left of its carbon material or red
paint.

Meanwhile, learn what joules really mean in a plug-in protector.
1000 joules in a plug-in protector is maybe equivalent to a 333 joule
'whole house' protector. And that assumes none of those joules are
used on other ports such as telephone or cable. Furthermore, as
joules increase, then protector life expectancy increases
exponentially. To be equivalent to a minimal 1000 joule 'whole house'
protector, the plug-in protector must be at least 3000 joules. Too
often, UPSes and power strips were only 345 or 900 joules - grossly
undersized. Only recently have some plug-in protectors sold 'still
too small' 2000 joules products.

You have never seen a grossly undersized protector vaporize? View
what was too unacceptably common with so many plug-in protectors:
http://www.ehs.washington.edu/LabSaf/surge.htm
http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge%20Protectors.pdf
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
Imagine what these would do in dust balls on a rug behind the table or
on a desktop covered in papers. Does not matter if your desktop does
not have papers. Other's do which is but another reason why plug-in
protectors can also cause human safety problems.

But again, some principles to grasp before understanding surge
protection. Ever touch a doorknob to cause a static discharge? What
was the electrical connection from that finger to charges below your
shoes? Notice how many of those items are normally not considered
conductive. And yet electricity flowed from that finger tip, through
door, through floor to bottom of your shoes. Welcome to surge
protection where concrete and linoleum become excellent conductors of
electricity. Where a coil and wiper inside a relay become electrically
connected. Just more examples of why surges cannot be stopped - and
therefore why effective protection has always been about diverting
before a surge can enter a building. Diverting via low impedance - not
just low resistance - connections to a single point electrode.

One final point. Single point need not be a single ground rod.
Single point can also be a halo or ufer ground completely enclosing a
building's perimeter. But single point earthing and low impedance
connections are essential to effective protection.

Pete C. wrote:
> As I noted, nothing is going to stop a direct strike. Most strikes
> aren't direct however and are primarily inductive pickup from a nearby
> strike and therefore reduced to a much more manageable level.
> ...
>
> Again for a direct hit. For a surge of the level of the much more common
> inductively coupled strike that does not apply.
> ...
>
> The MOVs that are located adjacent to the phone line connector on a
> quality modem should clamp the surge. The drive to the off hook relay is
> also not electrically connected to the line, nor is most of the rest of
> the modem. The DAA transformer, ring detect optoisolator and hook switch
> relay are about all that is connected to the line.
> ...
>
> Again, reducing the current path and the potential for further inductive
> coupling.
> ...
>
> Any suppressers downstream provide further protection against
> inductively coupled surges which don't have to come through the service
> entrance conductors and residual surges past what the primary
> suppressers were able to clamp. Also for #1, that third pin on the power
> plug *is* a dedicated earthing wire.
> ...
>
> I've never seen a vaporized MOV of any size. I have seen a few that have
> failed and cracked after being subjected to substantial surges. If you
> review the joule ratings of the various MOVs and gas discharge arrestors
> you find in typical small suppressers you'll see that their ratings are
> not at all far behind those of the common whole house suppressers. Some
> of the quite expensive service entrance suppressers intended for
> commercial services have higher ratings, but not the common ones.
> ...
>
> Refer you to the dedicated grounding (earthing) conductor provided to
> every electrical device in a residence. The dedicated third pin on a
> NEMA 5-15 (or 5-20 or 5-xx, 6-xx, etc.) receptacle.
> ...
>
>> Appliances already contain internal protection.
> Some appliances do, many do not. Don't recall the last time I saw any
> suppression devices in a toaster or a blender.
> ...


Posted by Pete C. on June 13, 2006, 12:12 pm
w_tom wrote:
>
> Numerous points that make assumptions based in a world where
> impedance does not exist - where only resistance exists.
>
> First, nothing will stop a direct strike. But direct strikes
> routinely do no damage when they are diverted. Major difference
> between stopping (which plug-in protectors hope you will assume) and
> diverting which is standard where direct lightning strikes do not
> damage. Again, 25 direct strikes annually to electronics atop the
> Empire State Building; 40 annually to the WTC - and electronics not
> damaged. It is routine to earth direct strikes without damage -
> because we don't stop a direct strike. We divert it to earth.
>
> Inductive transients? Well put some numbers to them. I assume
> this is about a nearby lightning strike to a long wire antenna. Well
> that nearby strike may induce a few thousand volts onto that antenna.
> Then we connect an NE-2 (neon glow lamp) from that antenna to earth.
> Because that neon glow lamp conducts only milliamps, then that
> thousands volts on antenna is now less than 60 volts. IOW induced
> transients are that trivial. So trivial as to be made irrelevant by
> protection inside all appliances. And yet, even industry standards of
> 30+ years ago (i.e. CBEMA) defined protection that was inside all
> electronic appliances even that long ago. It takes so little to make
> induced transients irrelevant. But it is the direct strike that causes
> damage.
>
> You did not see protector devices inside the blender? You were not
> looking like an engineer? Why do you think wire was heavier gauge than
> necessary? You are making a classic mistake. You have assumed
> protector is as specific device. Protection is not necessary achieved
> by a protector. Protection is something in the engineering. You are
> instead looking for a specific device rather than first learning the
> design. Meanwhile, we were discussing electronics appliances - not
> blenders that have no electronics.
>
> Is "drive to the off hook relay ... also not electrically connected
> to the line, nor is most of the rest of the modem"? First go to data
> sheets. That coil inside a modem off hook relay does electrically
> connect to its wiper as those datasheets demonstrate. Not at 100
> volts. But then even floors and wall paints become conductive during
> these transients. Datasheet for that off-hook relay even states what
> voltage causes a coil to connect to relay wiper. That is how modems
> are so often damaged - as we also demonstrated when constructing
> massive relay switching drawers in test equipment to connect and
> disconnect those voltages. How are modems damaged? Get those
> datasheets. Even optocouplers have breakdown voltages. When that
> off-hook relay coil breakdown voltage is exceeded, then a destructive
> transient passes through PNP transistor, through relay, and to earth
> ground via phone line. Everything has a breakdown voltage. What we
> assume is not conductive at trivial low voltages become a perfect
> conductor at higher voltage.
>
> Defined was how a modem is damaged when an AC electric line surge
> finds earth ground via modems DAA section, phone line, and earthed
> 'whole house' protector.
>
> Try to make two ends of a fluorescent lamp conduct with an ohm meter.
> No connection. Then why do so few volts conduct current across that
> tube when tube is glowing? Same principle. That relay coil and relay
> wiper are electrically connected during a surge which is why we so
> routinely repaired modems by replacing a surge damaged PNP driver
> transistor. Surge incoming on AC lines and outgoing on phone line. To
> be damage, electronics must have both an incoming and outgoing path.
> Surges do not enter on phone line, ignore phone line 'whole house'
> protector, crash on a modem, and stop. Electricity just does not work
> that way.
>
> As described in another post is wire impedance. Using Bud's
> citations that demonstrate how plug-in protectors can fail to provide
> protection: two TVs sharing a plug-in protector are at 8000 volts.
> How can this be when those plug-in protectors are grounded by three
> prong electrical connection to breaker box? Because one end of that
> safety ground wire is at near zero volts and the other end is at 8000
> volts - wire impedance. How can one end of a wire be at 8000 volts and
> the other end at near zero volts? Welcome to a basic electrical
> principle that also explains why different parts of a transmitting
> antenna wire are at different voltages.
>
> A 50 foot AC electric ground wire is maybe 0.2 ohms resistance. But
> that same ground wire is maybe 120 ohms impedance to a surge. A
> trivial 100 amp surge enters wall receptacle. 120 ohms times 100 amps
> is a voltage somewhere below 12,000 volts. Same reason why those two
> TVs can be at 8000 volts during a surge. Same reason why earthing must
> be 'less than 10 feet' to single point earth ground. But then this is
> old and well proven concepts - wire impedance.
>
> More reasons why that 50 foot AC electric wire has even higher
> impedance and creates other surge related problems. Sharp bends.
> Splices. Bundled with other wires thereby induced transients on those
> other wires. Wall receptacle is not an earth ground. Wall receptacle
> is a safety ground. Wire impedance is why that wall receptacle is not
> sufficient for earthing.
>
> Yes appliances do have internal protection as required by industry
> standards. Once some appliances (ie Apple II) installed those
> protectors. No longer. MOVs inside the computer were as not effective
> as they would be on its power cord - for so many reasons - including
> too far from earth ground.
>
> You have not seen MOVs vaporize? Get 30+ years experience with this
> technology to see it. Some vaporized MOVs looked ominously ghostly.
> Only left were two leads. Nothing left of its carbon material or red
> paint.
>
> Meanwhile, learn what joules really mean in a plug-in protector.
> 1000 joules in a plug-in protector is maybe equivalent to a 333 joule
> 'whole house' protector. And that assumes none of those joules are
> used on other ports such as telephone or cable. Furthermore, as
> joules increase, then protector life expectancy increases
> exponentially. To be equivalent to a minimal 1000 joule 'whole house'
> protector, the plug-in protector must be at least 3000 joules. Too
> often, UPSes and power strips were only 345 or 900 joules - grossly
> undersized. Only recently have some plug-in protectors sold 'still
> too small' 2000 joules products.
>
> You have never seen a grossly undersized protector vaporize? View
> what was too unacceptably common with so many plug-in protectors:
> http://www.ehs.washington.edu/LabSaf/surge.htm
> http://www.westwhitelandfire.com/Articles/Surge%20Protectors.pdf
> http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
> Imagine what these would do in dust balls on a rug behind the table or
> on a desktop covered in papers. Does not matter if your desktop does
> not have papers. Other's do which is but another reason why plug-in
> protectors can also cause human safety problems.
>
> But again, some principles to grasp before understanding surge
> protection. Ever touch a doorknob to cause a static discharge? What
> was the electrical connection from that finger to charges below your
> shoes? Notice how many of those items are normally not considered
> conductive. And yet electricity flowed from that finger tip, through
> door, through floor to bottom of your shoes. Welcome to surge
> protection where concrete and linoleum become excellent conductors of
> electricity. Where a coil and wiper inside a relay become electrically
> connected. Just more examples of why surges cannot be stopped - and
> therefore why effective protection has always been about diverting
> before a surge can enter a building. Diverting via low impedance - not
> just low resistance - connections to a single point electrode.
>
> One final point. Single point need not be a single ground rod.
> Single point can also be a halo or ufer ground completely enclosing a
> building's perimeter. But single point earthing and low impedance
> connections are essential to effective protection.
>

You sure do like to babble, too bad 99.9% of what you say is either
total nonsense, pseudo-science, or hopelessly misapplied scientific
principles. Your links to claimed "vaporized" MOVs show no such thing
either.

Pete C.

Posted by w_tom on June 13, 2006, 1:24 pm
Pete C. wrote:
> You sure do like to babble, too bad 99.9% of what you say is either
> total nonsense, pseudo-science, or hopelessly misapplied scientific
> principles. Your links to claimed "vaporized" MOVs show no such thing
> either.

You don't understand wire impedance. You insist that industry
professional papers are lies. Those burning power strip protectors due
to failing MOVs somehow are not fire threats? Meanwhile others who
want effective protection learn why properly earthed and properly sized
'whole house' protectors from responsible manufacturers such as Square
D, GE, Siemens, Polyphaser, Cuter-Hammer, Intermatic, and Leviton make
that short connection to earth; therefore provide effective
protection.

Reasons why such protectors sold in Home Depot and Lowes are long;
assume the reader understands basic electrical concepts such as wire
impedance. To make such problems such as wire impedance irrelevant, we
install an effective protector with a 'less than 10 foot' connection to
earth. Apparently concepts such as wire impedance and MOVs vaporizing
is completely new information to Pete C. Others are encouraged to learn
why above manufacturers of 'whole house' protectors are considered so
responsible; provide effective protection. In the case of Polyphaser,
that protection is considered legendary.


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