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surge protectors karsan 06-11-2006
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Posted by w_tom on June 13, 2006, 2:19 am
Joshua Putnam wrote:
> I've looked rather closely at my coax entrance -- only the outer
> conductor is grounded. The center conductor is not. (Shouldn't be too
> surprising, if you shorted them both to ground, it would attenuate the
> signal a bit, no?)
>
> What, other than a surge protector, stops transients on the center
> conductor of cable TV?

Generally all protectors attentuate signals. In earlier days, I
always wondered why center core connection was not performed. Some
experienced professionals in the rec.radio.amateur.antenna newsgroup
confirmed what I had been told. Leakage from the center conductor to a
well earthed outer conductor provides sufficient protection. A
capacitive protector on center core would only attentuate signals;
provide little protection advantage. But then some legendary
manufacturers do make protectors that include that center core.

You are not earthing a 200,000 amp direct strike - which you probably
will never see in your lifetime. Using a ground block to earth the
outer braid is a massive protection improvement. If you still need
better, then visit some expensive and superior protector manufacturers
such as www.polyphaser.com .

Nothing 'stops transients on the ... conductor'. Anything that
stops or blocks such transients is not effective. Effective protection
is diverting. Destructive transients seek earth. Therefore the sooner
that transient is diverted / earthed (meaning a shorter connection to
earth and farther from transistors), then the better that protection.


Posted by on June 13, 2006, 3:39 pm

w_tom wrote:
> Joshua Putnam wrote:
> > I've looked rather closely at my coax entrance -- only the outer
> > conductor is grounded. The center conductor is not. (Shouldn't be too
> > surprising, if you shorted them both to ground, it would attenuate the
> > signal a bit, no?)
> >
> > What, other than a surge protector, stops transients on the center
> > conductor of cable TV?
>
> Generally all protectors attentuate signals. In earlier days, I
> always wondered why center core connection was not performed. Some
> experienced professionals in the rec.radio.amateur.antenna newsgroup
> confirmed what I had been told. Leakage from the center conductor to a
> well earthed outer conductor provides sufficient protection. A
> capacitive protector on center core would only attentuate signals;
> provide little protection advantage. But then some legendary
> manufacturers do make protectors that include that center core.
>
> You are not earthing a 200,000 amp direct strike - which you probably
> will never see in your lifetime. Using a ground block to earth the
> outer braid is a massive protection improvement. If you still need
> better, then visit some expensive and superior protector manufacturers
> such as www.polyphaser.com .
>
> Nothing 'stops transients on the ... conductor'. Anything that
> stops or blocks such transients is not effective. Effective protection
> is diverting. Destructive transients seek earth. Therefore the sooner
> that transient is diverted / earthed (meaning a shorter connection to
> earth and farther from transistors), then the better that protection.


Tom like to make an argument out of everything, including symantics.
Most reasonable folks would agree that if a protective device shunts a
surge to ground, that it has in fact stopped the transient, because the
destructive transient does not make it to the protected equipment.


Posted by w_tom on June 13, 2006, 5:58 pm
trader4@optonline.net wrote:
> Tom like to make an argument out of everything, including symantics.
> Most reasonable folks would agree that if a protective device shunts a
> surge to ground, that it has in fact stopped the transient, because the
> destructive transient does not make it to the protected equipment.

Granted it is a minor point. But the point is made because many
assume a plug-in protectors sitting between a transistor and a surge
will somehow stop or block what three miles of sky could not.
Effective protectors 'shunt'. Those protectors that don't have earth
ground hope one assumes it will instead 'stop' or 'absorb' a surge to
promote a myth. Even shunt mode plug-in protectors only shunt - divert
- a transient. To be effective, it must shunt to earth and not divert
into the appliance. A 'semantic' that can otherwise create confusion
- promote an ineffective product.


Posted by on June 13, 2006, 10:27 pm

>
> Granted it is a minor point. But the point is made because many
>assume a plug-in protectors sitting between a transistor and a surge
>will somehow stop or block what three miles of sky could not.
>Effective protectors 'shunt'. Those protectors that don't have earth
>ground hope one assumes it will instead 'stop' or 'absorb' a surge to
>promote a myth. Even shunt mode plug-in protectors only shunt - divert
>- a transient. To be effective, it must shunt to earth and not divert
>into the appliance. A 'semantic' that can otherwise create confusion
>- promote an ineffective product.


This is the only place I dissagree with W-Tom.
He is 100% right about the importance of a single point ground,
bonding of all point of entry protection plus the importance of solid
grounding electrodes and connections. You should try to stop the
surge at the service entrance but where I dissagree is I still think a
plug in protector has value to catch the things his point of entry
system didn't stop. These will usually be a very low order tranient if
the POE system was working but still enough to hurt you. It is better
to heat up a shunt wired MOV than to let this into a MOSFET.
Good point of use protectors also have a large ferro resonant
componant that will eat some heat too.
It still needs a good ground path back to your grounding electrode
system, just to stabilize the reference levels. He is right that it
does little good to clamp the transient if the resulting "zero" is 40v
above the ground reference of the interface lines.
You can't have too many layers of protection if you live in a
lightning area. I just like to add another layer to his system.
When I was doing physical planning for a large corporation that sold
business machines internationally we had a lot of lightning experience
is South Florrida. Layers of protection works for people who can't
turn off their system and unplug it every afternoon in the summer.


Posted by on June 14, 2006, 9:32 am

gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
>
> >
> > Granted it is a minor point. But the point is made because many
> >assume a plug-in protectors sitting between a transistor and a surge
> >will somehow stop or block what three miles of sky could not.
> >Effective protectors 'shunt'. Those protectors that don't have earth
> >ground hope one assumes it will instead 'stop' or 'absorb' a surge to
> >promote a myth. Even shunt mode plug-in protectors only shunt - divert
> >- a transient. To be effective, it must shunt to earth and not divert
> >into the appliance. A 'semantic' that can otherwise create confusion
> >- promote an ineffective product.
>
>
> This is the only place I dissagree with W-Tom.
> He is 100% right about the importance of a single point ground,
> bonding of all point of entry protection plus the importance of solid
> grounding electrodes and connections. You should try to stop the
> surge at the service entrance but where I dissagree is I still think a
> plug in protector has value to catch the things his point of entry
> system didn't stop. These will usually be a very low order tranient if
> the POE system was working but still enough to hurt you. It is better
> to heat up a shunt wired MOV than to let this into a MOSFET.
> Good point of use protectors also have a large ferro resonant
> componant that will eat some heat too.
> It still needs a good ground path back to your grounding electrode
> system, just to stabilize the reference levels. He is right that it
> does little good to clamp the transient if the resulting "zero" is 40v
> above the ground reference of the interface lines.
> You can't have too many layers of protection if you live in a
> lightning area. I just like to add another layer to his system.
> When I was doing physical planning for a large corporation that sold
> business machines internationally we had a lot of lightning experience
> is South Florrida. Layers of protection works for people who can't
> turn off their system and unplug it every afternoon in the summer.



I agree. Tom starts off with good advice, but then goes down the path
of "If the whole house surge protection didn't work, then you did
something wrong and point of use protectors are useless." I and many
others have had experiences where it was pretty clear that plug-in
surge protectors did work. He's right, that a short ground path with
a service protector is clearly better, but that doesn't mean the
plug-in protectors are totally useless. A lot, for example, depends on
the rise time of the surge. The slower the rise time, the less
impedance there will be.

Also, for many folks, eg, those living in apartments, a whole house AC
protector is just not possible.


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