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surge protectors karsan 06-11-2006
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Posted by Bob on June 13, 2006, 11:09 pm

w_tom wrote:

> Was cable earthed before entering a building? If not, then yes,
> cable may be an incoming source of electricity called a surge. Cable
> must drop down and make a 'less than 10 foot' connection to a same
> earth ground used by AC electric and telephone. If cable enters house
> without dropping down and connecting to earth, then yes, cable can be
> the incoming path of a surge that was seeking earth ground
> destructively through tuners.


The cable shield was grounded via a grounding block, a 4' piece of #10
bare copper wire, and a separate grounding rod of unknown length, all
installed by the cable company. They have since rerouted the ground to
the service entrance ground.

> Don't assume a modem was damaged by a surge from phone line. Don't
> think of surges as a wave crashing on a beach. Surges just don't work
> that way. First electricity flows in everything in a path through that
> modem. Everything is conducting the same electricity. Long afterwards
> (microseconds later), something in that path is destroyed. That path
> could be incoming on phone line. Or a destructive path through modem
> can be incoming on AC electric or cable; outgoing on phone line.

The modem was damaged from the incoming phone line. The computer was
switched off. The modem's impedance matching transformers were blown
along with the input/output stage. By the way, the phone line is all
underground for miles so it was a ground induced surge. But that is
not uncommon.

Bob


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Posted by Bud-- on June 13, 2006, 3:47 am
Bob wrote:

> karsan wrote:
>
>
>>It is dangerous to have more than one surge protectors in you home I
>>have 3 surge protectors running in my home.
>
>
> I have a whole house "protector" at the electrical panel and several
> smaller units scattered throught the house. I have had several
> lightning hits in the near vicinity and have never had electrical
> damage. But I have lost 4 TV's from lightning coming in on the cable -
> all damaged in the tuner sections rather than power sections. And I
> have had computer modems fry from surges on the telephone line. So
> from that, I deduce the whole house unit is doing it's job, but the
> others are questionable.
> Bob
>

Plug-in surge suppressors for cable TV need to have a port to include
both the power and cable TV. The multi-port surge suppressor will clamp
all voltages on power and signal wires to the common ground at the
suppressor. The IEEE guide at
http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/LightningGuide_FINALpublishedversion_May051.pdf
explains this quite well. It says the cable center conductor can be 4000
volts with respect to the shield. A plug-in suppressor will clamp this,
likely with a gas discharge tube. A bigger problem is if the cable
entrance ground block is not near, and connected with a short wire, to
the power service earthing conductor. That is also protected by a
multi-port plug-in surge suppressor and is illustrated in the IEEE guide.

Similarly, a plug-in suppressor for a computer with phone connection has
to have ports for both power and phone line.

bud--

Posted by w_tom on June 13, 2006, 1:07 pm
Plug-in protector has no effective earth ground. No earth ground
means no effective protection. Therefore Bud's article shows a plug-in
protector putting two TVs at 8000 volts. Will those TVs at 8000 volts
not be damaged - not leak currents in destructive paths? No. Those TVs
may be damaged because they are at 8000 volts. Bud's citation even
demonstrates why plug-in protectors can contribute to damage.

Other papers he forgets to cite note how plug-in protectors can even
contribute to damage of that adjacent appliance - TVs:
Martzloff and Key in 1994 wrote in "Surging the Upside-Down House:
Looking
into Upsetting Reference Voltages" :
> 1) Quantitative measurements in the Upside-Down house clearly
> show objectionable difference in reference voltages. These occur
> even when or perhaps because, surge protective devices are
> present at the point of connection of appliances.

But then that is what the mikeholt.com paper also demonstrates on
page 33/34 in figures 8 and 9. TVs put at 8000 volts because a plug-in
protector is too far from earth ground; therefore is not properly
earthed. Earthing is essential to effective protection.

The paper on page 22 says:
> An effective, low-impedance ground path is critical for the
> successful operation of an SPD. ... Therefore, an evaluation
> of the service entrance grounding system at the time of the
> SPD installation is very important.

Of course. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
That protector adjacent to TVs put those TVs at 8000 volts -
ineffective protection. Effective protection must make a low impedance
connection to a good earth ground. That again means a protector
located 'less than 10 feet' from earth. Even Bud's paper demonstrates
how "objectionable ... voltages ... occur even when or perhaps because
surge protective devices are present at the point of connection of
appliances". The adjacent protector can even contribute to damage of
electronics.
.

Bud-- wrote:
> Plug-in surge suppressors for cable TV need to have a port to include
> both the power and cable TV. The multi-port surge suppressor will clamp
> all voltages on power and signal wires to the common ground at the
> suppressor. The IEEE guide at
>
http://www.mikeholt.com/files/PDF/LightningGuide_FINALpublishedversion_May051.pdf
> explains this quite well. It says the cable center conductor can be 4000
> volts with respect to the shield. A plug-in suppressor will clamp this,
> likely with a gas discharge tube. A bigger problem is if the cable
> entrance ground block is not near, and connected with a short wire, to
> the power service earthing conductor. That is also protected by a
> multi-port plug-in surge suppressor and is illustrated in the IEEE guide.
>
> Similarly, a plug-in suppressor for a computer with phone connection has
> to have ports for both power and phone line.
>
> bud--


Posted by Bud-- on June 14, 2006, 1:15 am
w_tom wrote:

> Plug-in protector has no effective earth ground. No earth ground
> means no effective protection. Therefore Bud's article shows a plug-in
> protector putting two TVs at 8000 volts. Will those TVs at 8000 volts
> not be damaged - not leak currents in destructive paths? No. Those TVs
> may be damaged because they are at 8000 volts. Bud's citation even
> demonstrates why plug-in protectors can contribute to damage.
>

The IEEE guide clearly describes the action of a multi-port plug-in
surge suppressor as clamping all wires to the common ground at the surge
suppressor, with earthing being secondary. Why does chapter 6 of the
IEEE guide "SPECIFIC PROTECTION EXAMPLES" use multi-port plug-in surge
suppressors in both examples??

I agree with <wfretwell>. that a service panel surge suppressor and a
single point ground are both a very good ideas. The question is whether
plug-in surge suppressors are effective. To anyone who can read, the
IEEE and NIST guides clearly say they are.

You have proviced no reputable links saying plug-in surge suppressors
are not effective.
Where are your supporting links??

bud--

Posted by Rob Mills on June 13, 2006, 3:53 am

>> It is dangerous to have more than one surge protectors in you home I
have 3 surge protectors running in my home.<<

I had a surge once (caused by nearby lightning strike) while I had 3 five
outlet strips connected together in one room. The surge protectors were
destroyed and the carpet they were sitting on was scorched/burned but
nothing that was connected to them was damaged which included a
computer a police scanner , shortwave radio and a couple of other small
items.
During the same incident in an adjacent room another surge protector
was destroyed along with a VCR but a TV that was connected to the
same protector was spared. RM~


PS, The surge protectors in use had well constructed metal housings. I
suspect we would have had a fire if they were of the plastic type.








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